Kook Aid – The Battle – Part 1

I probably should’ve known what I was getting myself into when I left an opposing opinion on Spencer Hughes’ Facebook status, but it was 6:45 am at the time and I hadn’t had my coffee. Anyway, it sparked a discussion spanning four posts on Spencer’s wall. Below is the initial status I responded to. See also: Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 (the last two are the “best”).

Spencer’s Initial Status

Spencer Hughes :You know we're in trouble when your liberal friends applaud that unemployment is down to 10%. What the frig are we doing in this country?!?! The bigger picture is that this Administration is implementing programs that will CRIPPLE America. And so far they refuse to believe that the global warming hysteria is based on FRAUD. What a MESS.

Alison - Amen Spencer. You tell it like it is and we appreciate that! Have a great FRIDAY!

Jim - I went through the list of wrongs last night - AAAAAHHHH! I mean, these republicans are arguing about AMENDMENTS to healthcare. Amendments???

Diana - I think they counted that number over Thanksgiving break, when the unemployment offices were closed.

Lee - Spencer, we know we will never get through to the thick headed liberals........especially now that they are in denial.......pretty sad our Constitution is being torn apart

Gil - Remember the NY Times top fold HUGE PRINT that said 6% UNEMPLOYMENT under GWB? Weird how suddenly 10% is a good number...

Mike - You're surprised!?!?! God forbid we had a couple of nuclear explosions in popular cities in this country & you would still have these far left radicals like Pelosi & Reid with nothing on their mind but using the opportunity to push these government control programs through while the countryl is distracted!

Kevin - i hope they will have a good answer to the LORD,because they F---up this great country and the people that live here.there will be close mouths and hell to pay.i would love,to see the LORD,tell nancy and her friends to shut-up and bow before me,because now it will be time to see how you live your life and how you treated other people.COME LORD,SOON.

Greg - It's 17+ percent. It's bogus smoke and mirrors that people are removed from the list when they stop looking for work. All Obama can do is hold photo ops at the White House and go to Allentown. Someone should tell him he won the election. Time to stop campaigning, and get down to work. Only one good thing will come of his Health Care Reform, Cap & Tax and his huge deficits... a Republican president in 2012.

Jim - Spencer this is a huge mess. The Administration setting up programs for people so they don't have to find work so they all can suck off the government nipple. This feel good, touchy feelly let's all hug and let's have the government take care of your needs will kill America as we know it today. Climategate is another mess of lies and slight of hand to make a one world government just scares the hell out of me. Having Barbra Boxer wanting to sweep it under the carpet and have the whistle blowers hung for coming forward is a just a peek into the future how they will control information to the masses and if you speakout??? Send you to a gulag ???This is a scary world we live in today. People, We need to vote these people out of office or our freedoms will be gone in a blink of an eye.

Matthew Orlando - I'm with you on the programs, but Global Warming? Seriously? I'm sorry to see you've fully drunk the Republican Kool-Aid since leaving KSRO.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=seven-answers-to-climate-contrarian-nonsense

Matthew Orlando - BTW: "believing" in global warming is not synonymous with the desire to increase government regulations. Global Warming is a fact. The politics is another story entirely.

If you believe that Global Warming is just a liberal conspiracy to implement tougher regulations on business then you're just as deluded as the people who think more government is the only viable solution.

Sally - Yes... What a mess....!

Jim - Matthew, Matthew Who has drank the kook-aid????

Matthew Orlando - Let's see... The majority of scientists from independent fields of study including climatology, meteorology, biology, geology, paleontology......... Or right-wing politicians who are simply reacting to left-wing politicians' push for more government regulation...

Lee - Hey Matt Global warming is a part of mother nature and guess what mother nature always wins..........keep drinking the koolaid

Matthew Orlando - There are two reasons Republicans are so opposed to the scientific truth (besides just parroting what they're told by their leaders):

1) If the liberals believe it's true, it must not be. This is absurd. You should spend less time denying reality and more time trying to convince the libbies that there are better solutions than increased regulation.

2) Belief that since God gave us this world to look over, He wouldn't let anything disastrous happen until the Rapture. I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole ;)

Gil - Think we found a Global Warming believer, the whole thing appears to be a fraud, the top scientists were fudging data, were destroying data (that was to be given due to a Freedom of Information order in England).

Global warming is a hoax, its a con, complete and total con. Anytime you have someone say "the science is settled" then turns and refuses to show their data or "science", wake up.

There was this guy, he found moons going around Jupiter, the zealots of his day said "shut up get in that tower and never speak again." Weird, it is almost like he pointed out that Global Warming wasn't real and the politically correct machine ran him over... Nah, that never happens anymore, or does it?

Matthew Orlando - And have any of you who are still calling it a con even bothered to read through the link I posted above? No. Would you even be able to comprehend it if you did? probably not. But it's not your fault. It's a failure of your education. Your entire world view is based on eating up whatever your leaders tell you without an independent thought to speak of.

I'm done here because I know I'm not going to win any minds. Just know that if you go through life never questioning, you're bound to be deluded about something at some point. If you care to come back with any rational, reason-based responses, I might play along. But if you're going to keep up with the emotional rhetoric, I'm not playing.

Gil - Pot meet kettle, his name is mathew.

Matthew Orlando - BTW: what I just said is equally true for liberals.

VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!! :P

Matthew Orlando - Gil: have you actually looked at the claims of the scientists? Or do you just eat what you're fed by news outlets?

Gil - You're horribly confused if you think Global Warming is a Libertarian cause, its all about huge business and limiting freedoms to the public. It is, quite Fascist in nature actually.

Jim - Matthew needs to go play out in the snow. Vote Libertarian!!!!

Matthew Orlando - Ok. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because it's early and I'm probably not making myself very clear.

Global warming is science, not politics. The problem in the politics is how we should move forward given the science. Liberals want to move forward by implementing fascist regulations. Conservatives, on the other hand, don't want to move forward at all. They just want to deny there's a problem in the first place.

I'm on your side as far as opposing anti-capitalistic regulations from the left. But that's not mutually exclusive with acceptance of the claims of scientists. If the Republicans want to win back some favor, they should accept the fact of global warming and try to find ways to deal with it in line with free market principles.

Jim - Matthew, There are many other Scienctist from all walks of studies that agree the opposite. You are getting the left-wing liberal push view. I feel so sorry for you buying into this crap. The world has always had climate change it's a fact. (where did the ice age come from??? Oh the Dino's did it driving Suv's I'm sorry. And what about the mini-ice age during the dark ages in Europe? Oh the monk's building chemical plants and driving Hummers) Do your reaserch and look at all sides.... Wow, you have been sucked in.

Matthew Orlando - jim: science is about the preponderance of evidence. The evidence comes from many different fields of study, as I mentioned above. In EVERY scientific matter, there will be squabbles about the details. But the truth isn't in the details. The truth is incorporated in the entire body of knowledge. At this point in time, the vast majority of peer-reviewed research supports the claims that our current period of global warming is caused by us.

Sure you can find scientists who agree with your point of view, but just because they exist doesn't mean they're right. And in fact, they may be right about particular claims they're making, but that doesn't somehow invalidate the mountains of other research that has gone into the matter.

Matthew Orlando - I invite you all to read the link I posted earlier (here it is again: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=seven-answers-to-climate-contrarian-nonsense )

I really don't care if you come away from it with a changed mind, but it's always better to expose yourself to more information whether you agree with it or not. This is why I read blogs and listen to radio shows from all different political persuasions. I'm confident that the decisions I make and the conclusions I reach are based on the broadest set of facts at my disposal. If you do the same, and reach different conclusions, then I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

Jim - I did read it before I commented

Jim - Matt!!! Global Warming=Liberal Politics Bottom Line (Welcome to the real world and stay off the pipe)

Jim - Spencer??? See what you started...HaHaHa

Jim - GLobal warming is questionable at best. I've had the official class from the wx service and saw where the Gore-ites have played with the data. The truth is that when the sun is at solar max, there's appreciable rising in temperature. Currently the sun is in an astoundingly near dormant pattern and my friend tells me we haven't had sunspot activity now for something like 79 days and when we did, it was minimal. The sun seems be putting us in a cooling period so if mankind could warm the earth by a degree, it might actually compensate for this natural phenom. But that is all debatable and we've documented temperatures for such a short period of time relative to the total age of the earth, the mankind causes global warming theory is more religion than science.

Jim - I know Al said "the debate is over" but he's full of co2 on that. Real science is always open for debate.

Spencer Hughes - Matthew, these "scientists" are stepping down in disgrace. This idea that we are destroying the earth IS a FRAUD. God, Matthew, you know better than that! You DO sound like you've been more than sipping the Kook-Aid.

John - I think Matthew is right on. Questions everything.

As far as Obama still pushing through for government regulations etc after this internal conspiracy has been exposed? Reminds me of Bush and Cheney still pushing for Iraq so hard once that conspiracy was exposed.

Neither side of this Republican/Democrat government is your friend. Those that believe so on either side are drinking the kook aid.

Joshua - Here's what gets me: there are top reseachers who faked weather data to strengthen global warming debate and Barbara Boxer (D-Calif) is more concerned about HOW the faked data got out in the open. Amazing.

Lee - liberals always looking for that free meal..........without working for it...........keep drinking the Kool Aid Matt

Matthew Orlando - Jim: Okay, now I'm NOT going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You have clearly demonstrated that you have no interest in discussing this in a reasonable, rational manner.

If there's one thing I've learned in my 3^3 years on this planet, it's that "plain and simple" is rarely both and usually neither. If you're not going to take the time and actually consider opposing views, then I really don't have anything more to say. Your mind is closed and no amount of contradictory evidence will convince you.

Unlike politicians, scientists actually analyze credible, opposing viewpoints which is what they've done in that article I linked. That's exactly what science is about. Falsifying claims is how science functions. Unfortunately for the climate change denialists, the opposing scientific view has been found wanting.

One last comment before I depart.

Anyone who says global warming is nothing more than a liberal conspiracy to implement fascist programs is just as much of a nutjob as the people who say 9/11 was nothing more than a conservative conspiracy to start a war in the middle east.

In both cases the overwhelming evidence leads to the opposite conclusions. But humans want to see design and intent in everything they witness. In doing so, they latch onto every tiny detail, and end up missing the forest for the trees.

Matthew Orlando - Ok, make that two (well really just expanding on my 3rd paragraph above):

Science starts out with the "null hypothesis," essentially they believe a claim is not true until evidence suggests otherwise. The null hypothesis in the case of global warming is that it isn't happening and that it isn't anthropogenic. This was the state of science in the early part of last century.

Then along comes some empirical data or some intuition, and someone comes up with another hypothesis: that global warming exists and is caused by human activity. These are testable claims, so experiments are designed such that a negative result will falsify the hypothesis. So far, the experiments have not contradicted this hypothesis. After decades of research, scientists have reached a consensus. Global warming exists, and the most recent trend was caused by us.

Now, consensus doesn't mean it's over. If more experiments come along to falsify the claim, then they should be given just as much weight as any other. And they have. But their claims too are falsifiable. And that's what this article I've linked several times has done.

Lee - tell Gore to give his trophy back! To be rewarded by lying.......seems to be the liberal way........can't get by on their own merits

Matthew Orlando - Sure thing. Gore is a hypocritical douche. That doesn't say anything about whether global warming is true or not.

Your inability to separate science from politics is breathtaking. Although I really shouldn't be surprised. Republicans and Democrats both have a long-running track record of ignoring reality in favor of ideology.

Matthew Orlando - Are you even capable of coming back with a response that shows even the slightest hint that you've thought about the scientific claims, or are you just going to continue your mindless "ZOMG ITS AL GORE!!!11" "FASCIST CONSPIRACY" "DON"T DRINK THE KOOL-AID" drivel?

And before you call me a hypocrite, I've done exactly that. I've backed up my counterclaims with resources so you can see for yourself and evaluate the evidence on its own merits. Like i said, I don't care what conclusion you reach as long as it's based on reality.

Jim - Some live in their own reality. Matthew, awake, my friend. This planet's been here long time before you and it will be here after you're gone.

Matthew Orlando - "Matthew, these "scientists" are stepping down in disgrace."

If every scientist who has ever published a study that fits the global warming hypothesis was a fraudster, you might have a point. But even if your claims are true about one or two scientist, that makes absolutely no statement about the truth of the science.

"This idea that we are destroying the earth IS a FRAUD."

you've been more than sipping the Kook-Aid.

Matthew Orlando - Jim: of course the planet will be here. And that's why I'm trying to get you to separate politics from the science. Even if this global warming is entirely natural, it's still something human society will have to deal with. Global warming has the potential to ruin billions of lives through coastal flooding from melting surface ice, drought-induced famine from changing weather patterns, etc.

Will it be the end of the world? of course not. Is it something we want to happen? Well I can't speak for you, but I certainly have compassion for the people who it will affect.

Is it something we can fix? Maybe, maybe not. This last bit is the only place in the discussion where politics should come into play.

Lee - seriously...........in the end it will all come out and unravel, it is happening now..........liberals will stop spending when they run out of everyone elses money.....Does anyone know what hard work is about?

Patrick – ask southern tx about global warming

Carrie - All I have to say is... UGH

Matthew Orlando - In all fairness, there's no way to specifically attribute any particular weather incident to global warming. The statements by scientists about global warming deal with time spans of many decades. All we can really ever say is whether there is a statistically significant increase in the frequency of severe weather. Which there is.

John - Matthew - I wish people on both sides of this Liberal vs. Conservative, (Burger King vs. McDonalds, Ford vs. Chevy, Coke vs. Pepsi) brainwashing would understand that they are being soldiers of strategic marketing put in place to control us and keep career politicians in business as well as those that lobby them. The problem as you are witnessing here is that too many people live in that bubble. They believe that is all that exists is Conservative or Liberal thought. And as you can see here - Conservatives can be just as narrow minded as the Liberals they seem to despise. Politics is imposing itself on Science only as a way to get votes, control people, control businesses and make their lobbyists proud.

John - I think the Conservative argument of "Who do you want in charge of your healthcare - the government???" could be applied to all sorts of areas. Science, Finance, War. It has shown to be ineffective no matter if Pepsi or Coke is in charge this four years.

Mike - I think it could be debated that the earth could be in a natural warming trend even though it seems to be going the opposite way right now but, when it comes down to who would have more power over us & you follow the money to where it would all be going if these GW Bills of control pass, could there be lying & corruption possible......Oh yeah! IF it could be proven that GW is a natural phenomenon, these people that are so adamant about pushing this control & taxing us to death would then just blow away & not care less about GW.

Mario - As it is written, "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The Global warming hoax was started back in the 70's by the same U.C.Berkeley moron who couldn't sell us on the coming ice age, (easily verifiable). Cfc's, freon, fossil fuels, cow flatulence and now carbon dioxide. What next. they've outlawed everything and say there's still a problem. What gets me is that in several places on earth, including here in Cal, the temperature can fluctuate 60 to 70 degrees within a 24 hour period, yet idiots like Algore are screaming "The sky is falling" because the mean temperature of the ocean has risen 1/2 a degree in the last 1000 years. Ooooh! I don't know how we'll ever survive the heat. Also, the seas already rise by 12 to 15 feet, and the cities are still here. It's called high and low tide, look into it. Finally, there remains the biggest indesputable fact of all, every other planet in our solar system is experiencing the same degree of "Global warming" without the benefit or help of mankind, with all our cars and leaf blowers. Now we have the current administration on board with Algore and all this "Hopenhagen bullcr@p. It seems the "Kool-aid" has been replaced by Obalming fluid. If there was anything to this at all, then one would think that the Algores of the world would set example by not jetting around the world in a Gulfstream 2 or driving around in motorcades of bulletproof Hummers and Escalades. So far, of all the people in Gov't and all the Hollywood heavy hitters and all the scientists who are spouting this climate change cr@p, I've only seen one, Ed Begley Jr, who is walking the walk and talking the talk. I may not agree with the guy, but he has my respect. There are two absolute facts about global warming. 1. Algore has made over $100,000,000 since leaving office, won an oscar and the Nobel prize for perpetrating this garbage. 2. Algore is a partner in the company that sells the carbon credits and is the major benefactor of the money made off selling said credits.

Jim - After all the damn changes we have made (like getting up an hour earlier every spring and having our yards called wetlands so we can't add that extra room) It's about time we stop the nonsense. Take care of the earth and don't do unnecessary harm environmentally but really, when do we throw the party for all the stupid things we've done and put up with in the name of "saving the planet"?